"The Insanity of Persistance": How FK Architecture Perfected Its Modular Design Methodology[podcast transcript]

John McMullen

Hello and welcome to Inside Modular: The Podcast of Commercial Modular Construction, brought to you by the Modular Building Institute. Welcome, everyone. My name is John McMullen. I'm the Marketing Director here at MBI. Today I'm joined by Gary Badge and Manny Lamarche from Orlando based FK Architecture. Gary and Manny have returned to talk about how FK has evolved their modular design capabilities and talk about the latest innovations and methodologies they've incorporated. Gary and Manny, welcome back.

 

Gary Badge

Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Good to be back.

 

Manny Lamarche

Thank you, John.

 

John McMullen

Always good to talk with you guys. For those who haven't listened to one of our previous conversations, can you introduce yourselves briefly and tell me about FK Architecture?

 

Gary Badge

I'm Gary Badge. I'm a managing principal here at FK Architecture. We've been around for six years as of last year. We specialize in hospitality, multifamily, renovation work and modular work. We've got about 50 employees right now and we are licensed in 30 states throughout the US.

 

Manny Lamarche

I’m Manny Lamarche. I'm a senior designer here at FK Architecture and very excited about the World of Modular. We’ve been attending for three years now, it's going to be our third year, and since it is here in Orlando we're very excited. We're looking forward to attending and welcoming everybody.

 

John McMullen

Well, that's excellent. We're excited to be back in Orlando. It's a great city and it's going to be a great event. So, let's talk about what you guys have been up to in the past few years. I know it's been at least a couple since we last talked, you've been a member of MBI for a few years now. What can you tell me about your journey with modular building design in that time and how do you see others adopting it?

 

Gary Badge

Well, it's been a journey, that's a good way to put it. You know, we started out not knowing a whole lot about modular building. I mean, we did have some previous experiences we've mentioned in the past, but it was 20 years ago. So, we've long forgotten. So, we got back to our roots and with the help of the Modular Building Institute, we learned a lot. Manny and I share a strong passion for modular deliverable. We think that it speaks to a lot of the challenges we're seeing out in the world today with the construction industry and the design industry as a whole. As time has gone on, we've learned a lot, we've learned how to navigate the modular build, we've talked to a number of contractors, consultants, manufacturers, and anybody and everybody that's involved in the modular industry. Now, we've made some progress in some projects, we've got some container projects on the boards, we've got a number of projects on the boards that are using a prototype that we developed. We really still see that it has a purpose in a lot of the conversations we have with our clients. A lot of people are asking about it way more than they were when we started. I think it was five years ago when we joined, right before after COVID, somewhere in there. Since then, just in our region down here in the southeast, there's been a tremendous amount of interest. I have several conversations a month now about it, and how modular can help them. So, we just keep pushing the envelope.

 

Manny Lamarche

It's very interesting to me, because I lived in Europe in the 70s, I grew up in Madrid. Modular construction was something that you would hear about. I studied some architectural drafting there and modular construction was part of it. You had the German industry, the Bauhaus and those kinds of things. The court proceeding in France was modular. So, it's the kind of thing that was very present in my early years. So, when we started, Gary and I started talking about things that we could do, and we started discussing the possibility of modular and this was before we joined MBI. So, all of a sudden, all of that came back that was put in the back of my mind. It has become something that we're very passionate about it.

These days, every single type of development that we get involved with comes to my mind. How can we make this a modular product? We always consider it now almost by the nature of the work. It's something that makes a lot of sense for us and for many people, especially when you hit a certain volume and certain manufacturing capabilities. The buildings that we have been designing for the last couple of years, or actually since we’ve joined, is thinking about that framework that can work in multiple ways. Framework that could be prefabricated, that could be built in a factory, that could be then built in larger scale. Then you can realize the other benefits of modular construction. So, we're very, very passionate about it. Every time that we talk to developers, I always mention modular and the moment they blink, I am telling them about the Modular Building Institute and all the things that we could do.

 

John McMullen

Thank you, Manny. I'm curious how FK Architecture itself has changed. Since you guys have been advocating for modular so much, since you've been incorporating that into your designs, how's FK Architecture changed since it brought in modular into its greater portfolio?

 

Gary Badge

Well, now it's a mainstay offering. We've set it up on our website, we offer it, we promote it, then we're active in it. So, when we approach a project, we ask first, do you consider modular, which is something we didn't do before. So that's a change. We wouldn't even offer that because we weren't involved. Now we know enough about it that it depends on the region and where we're having the project depends on the type of client, what the needs are, but we always are able to insert it into the conversation. I have developed a methodology, our proposal formats and how we structure our fees. We've got a new line of consultants that we partner with, many of which are licensed in as many or more states as us because we see what we're doing as a national platform. We want to grow more than just where we are located here in southeast United States. Since we're active everywhere, we think that we can be effective. So, with the platform of modular, we took it to the next stage, since affordable housing was a big need across the US. We do a lot of it and have historically done a lot of it, we decided, let's take all the information and resources in our networks that we know about modular, and let's sit down and come up with a FK way of doing an affordable housing endeavor that speaks to the needs of local communities. That speaks to the needs and challenges of the building industry as a whole and can be more effective and productive for us in-house. And so that's permeated.

Now, because we've adapted to a lot of the efficiencies modular has to offer, the way that we're structuring our business across the board, even in the conventional projects we do is an efficiency. It's a way to do it where everybody knows their roles, they're able to effectively get a portion of the work done, they pass it on to the next teammate, they do their job and so on. I think it's a work in progress, but we've had a lot of successes with it. As such, we've been able to do a larger volume of work with less people and I think that's a good thing. Sometimes when the industry gets busy and there's a need for or a demand for an architect and an engineering firm, we respond by just adding more bodies to the mix. That doesn't always pan out because there's a process and finding great talent out there. There is some but a hard thing to do is to find the talent that meets our need, is familiar with the kind of work we do and the process we do.

So, again, it's become more of a way of life than a way of business. It's not this niche discussion point anymore. When I'm meeting with my partners or our design team, it's in most conversations now. Let's talk about modular, how could this project be improved by using modular? How can we develop this project in a way that gets it done to the clients’ needs, the contractor’s needs, and those are all known upfront. Usually a developer will say, hey, we've got a challenging site, we've got a short timeline. We've got a number of repetitive things that we want to do. Labor's short, we have a great contractor, but he's struggling to find the right labor. All the same topics that you hear over and over. It's still there. It's so prevalent. That hasn't gone away so it was just a natural fit that we introduce it into the conversation. With the prototype for affordable housing, that's been really exciting, because we think we could really be affected. We very much understand affordable housing, we understand the financial needs of affordable housing, we understand the needs from the social aspect and political aspects. With the right partners from the manufacturing side, we're able to hit a good broad range of the country now.

We've developed, again, a prototype, that's our little signature thing. It's based on principles that are out there, but it's the way that we deliver it. It's the whole package that we can provide from start to finish that makes it appealing. And we've had success, we've got active projects in Vegas, and we've got active projects in Tampa. We've talked to people in our hometown here in Orlando, we've talked to people in Georgia, and Atlanta. So, it's caught some attention out there. Would you say that we're making some pretty good strides Manny?

 

Manny Lamarche

Yeah, clearly. When we started the process a few years ago, we started from zero. We continued to have great interest, but we didn't have the context. We didn't have the people that we've met. The companies that we've come across by attending World of Modular has been instrumental in helping us visualize the great potential for the industry. Then when you overlay the housing affordability concerns that are very real, they're very tangible, then you can see how you have a problem on one side, and a variety of very targeted solutions on the manufacturing side. When manufacturing housing components, volumetric fabrication can clearly help address the concerns of living affordably.

 

Gary Badge

When we say affordable, I think there's a natural inclination as think of low income and that's not what we're thinking about. Today, affordable means attainable. I mean, we design apartments all the time. A market rate apartment in our region is easily $2,700 a month for a two bedroom and you're looking at a 1200 square foot unit. That's a hard bite on some families. Single moms, young couples or even people that are in the blue-collar industries, they are service workers out there. I mean, they deserve an affordable place to live so that they can raise their family as Manny said and be productive. It's tough when you have to focus on where the hell am I living? It's hard to be productive in your career and everything else. Things are getting out of sync and I feel the way that we've promoted our prototype, it's social, it's economical, political. It's a package deal.

 

John McMullen

Can you tell me about this prototype that you've been mentioning over the past few minutes and any other modules or projects that you've been working on recently that have incorporated these new methodologies that you've developed over the years?

 

Gary Badge

We’ve got a few things. We've got a prototype that we've developed for single family for rent. The single family for rent is the latest trend because of the economic situation. So single family home builders, even our multifamily developers that are having trouble penciling the numbers, are considering either a townhome product or a single-family home product. So, we've got a prototype for that. We've got a project here in Orlando that we're working on. We've got a micro house concept that is our prototype for a product we are working on in Tampa. Then we've got the same going for a couple of projects out in Las Vegas. They're different products.

The micro house product is something that Manny and I concocted. It's a simple formula. You know, it's the F 150. As Manny mentioned before, a funny little analogy, the chassis is the same, but we can do certain things to it to make it feel like it's different. It can grow in a few increments to get a little bigger depending on the need and then we've got a loft style unit for a live work environment. It's compact, it's efficient, it's straightforward. It's got a sub module where there's a kitchen, a bathroom, a shower and a laundry facility. It's all working together for efficiencies and keeping all the wet plumbing walls together; the living area is open, and we've used a lot of glazing to invite natural daylight. The ceilings are high, so this ultimate space feels bright, airy, volumetric. You don't feel like you're in a tight little shoe box, right? You feel like you're in a nicer space than maybe what it is. The material pallets are durable. We've even concocted a way to incorporate some modular furniture that we have by design. We've also worked with some other companies that have modular furniture out there. Manny could speak to that because he had the most detailed conversation with them, but it's to allow those that have a need to come in and start living right away. The modularity behind it speaks to the efficiency that we can put more units on a smaller site, we can deliver this thing quicker so they can get it to the market faster, and serve broader communities that have a tremendous need for housing.

The markets in the cities we're dealing with, it's urban infill. There are these tiny little sites, and we've talked to a number of governmental agencies, but specifically housing authorities. They own land, or they have a mission to develop land that they know the city owns, that's been forgotten. So, it creates these fragments. I mean, Tampa is fragmented. They're gentrifying the area, the set time center is growing, but then as you move a little farther out from the town center, there's still a sprawl. There's, you know, some variances and heights of buildings. There are some communities that are forgotten and lost. With our prototype, we're able to bring those things together and we connect that divide. It's been effective because we are able to show economically, look, this is an affordable build. It's built solid, it's quality. From our renderings, models and things in the walkthroughs that we've shown people, they've gotten a feel for, wow, this is not what I thought at all. This isn't a section eight housing kind of project with bare minimum things. This is as market rate as anything else on a smaller footprint and it's speaking to the need. So, I'll have Manny talk a little more about the details, but that's pretty much the gist of what the prototype is without giving away too much of our secret sauce.

 

Manny Lamarche

I think that one of our contributors, the heart of the concept is the ability to add to the product, create new products for different needs without having to fundamentally change the framework. So, the kit of parts that we have developed works in a modular way. The structural component remains basically the same and then we have a series of packages that would give you the difference between the affordable market or market rate. It would make the difference between a single bedroom, two bedroom or three-bedroom unit without having to have a complete redesign of that framework. The pieces come together in such a way that it would allow us to supply a quality product to the market. On our side, the predictability of cost control, and how the various pieces plug into that framework. For example, Gary mentioned the wet areas, the kitchen and the bathroom.

For the affordable market, we don't have 20 different types of bathrooms and 16 different types of kitchens. There is a basic kitchen because it's a market that meets certain specific things and it's a basic bathroom, but they are universally designed. You can enhance it a couple of notches if you're plugging this into a market rate product, or you can have the one or two basic packages for affordability. The basic framework for those sub modules is the same and that way we have a better grip on estimating what a 100-unit development could cost or a 1300-unit development could cost.

 

Gary Badge

And the cost always comes up. That's the number one question.

 

Manny Lamarche

That's essential, right? You hear the stories, right? That if we put aside conventional build and we go modular, it’s going to be more expensive. There are all sorts of speculation about what expensive means. Some people the other day told me, we looked at it, and it's 30% more expensive. I was wondering, maybe you're talking to the wrong people. There is something odd in that. So that's why we put some thought and tears into developing this prototype. Now the great thing is that we are seeing how this is being accepted and perceived as a great opportunity for us to start actually building in the next couple of years. Maybe we can start rolling out these ideas in a very effective way throughout the Vegas market. We'll use that as the point of the spear to then go into other markets. We already have a presence in Texas, here in Florida, Tennessee and some other places where we're already building conventional build affordable housing.

 

Gary Badge

So, we did the whole deliverable is what we said before. We know what the general economics are, you're never going to dial in specifically to what these costs are until you engage the manufacturer and know the details of the site. We have enough knowledge now that we get enough ballpark information that we can talk about it. When we started this journey five or six years ago, we had no information to share and a lot of people were turning away from us because they said, well, you have to hire the manufacturer first. Then we’ll talk about the project, we will price it, then let you know when we've done our homework. That's key to getting the interest for people to change their mind on what modular means.

Like Manny said, somebody said, well that's 30% more expensive. Again, maybe they are talking to the wrong people because we haven't seen an increase in that. Is it going to be cheaper depends on what your mission is, really. We have that data and that's key to all those discussions. I had a group in southwest Florida, and they wanted to do a large-scale community down there. This happened, right around November this past year. They said, we understand modular. Both me and my partner have been in modular business before. We would love to apply it here, but down in this market, we don't know what that means. Thankfully, Manny and I had made some progress, and we were able to share data with them. They took it back to their partners and now they've got to perform it. Now they know, we can successfully accomplish what we want to do with a modular build. It was a project with market rate apartments, over 300 units and we had a few unit types. We weren't using the micro house concept necessarily on that one, but with our other work that we had done with our traditional apartments, we used that. So, there was a trade there and we were able to successfully gain their interest in it.

We'll see what happens. I mean, it was November and we're not too far into the new year. That's just one instance. Then with the whole micro package, not only do we have the data, but we've got the plans, we can show you how it works. We got the models, we got the add-ons of every embellishments that you want. We've tried to answer as many questions that have been asked to us over the last few years as possible so we can gain that success in doing more modular projects, and it's working. I think it's a slow burn for us still here in this region, which is why I think we're both very pumped that World of Modular is in Orlando. I think you're going to have a pretty good turnout. There's been a lot more interest in our region in the last two years than there has been in a long time and it's because it's very challenging to do projects. I think that with people understanding that we can do it, maybe we'll get more manufacturer traction, that's what we're lacking here.

We know there's some players that have tried and are in the process of attempting to be significant here, but there's nobody really here to do what we're talking about. You still got to go to Georgia, Alabama, South Carolina, and farther, you know, partners we have in Chicago, Texas. Those don't always pencil because of the logistics of getting from there, down to Fort Myers for instance, it's not going to work as well. If we had a manufacturer here, man, I’ve been saying it for a long time. I think Manny agrees. I mean, we've got the supply chain, so come on partner with us. This is a call for everybody to get together and make this happen down here because I don't think it would stop.

 

John McMullen

Well, it should be a fantastic event. As you mentioned, World of Modular being in Orlando, I have every expectation that you should be able to have some excellent conversations with the builders, developers and people who are interested in being in Florida. I know the interest is there, it's just a matter of making it happen. I wanted to circle back a little bit. You talked about the prototype that you're developing and about your experiences over the past few years, clearly, a lot of thought has gone into your designs and prototypes. Is there anything that you've noticed in yourselves that has changed over the past few years? Are you paying attention to different details when you design for modular? Are you putting more emphasis on a certain area of design work than you used to? How have you guys in your design evolved over the past few years?

 

Manny Lamarche

There is something to be said about the insanity of being persistent. When we started the process and had these conversations, there are times when you think you're going nowhere. But believe me, if you are truly enthusiastic about whatever it is, and in our case it’s modular planning, modular design and manufacturing, it might appear to be a bit insane at times. If you're persistent, you'll start to see results. In our case, if we take into account from the time that we joined MBI, it's been three, four years. Now we are actually having conversation with developers about tangible products that can be put to market. So, it's not so insane now.

 

Gary Badge

I think when I'm asked about a project and to speak to how modular works, I'm looking for the repeatability of certain things. We dive into the unit mix a lot. We want to know how many units are one bedroom, two bedroom, three-bedroom? Immediately I'm thinking, well, how can we line this all up, get all the wet walls where they need to be, still meet the spirit of what these clients want to happen because they all want a unique experience. I'm thinking, okay, if I can do it modular and I can make the plan a little more efficient, I know that I'll have some economic savings because I've reduced the amount of differences I have in the plan. I know that it's going to be easier for building and coordinating in the field. So, I'm thinking of the engineering now. I'm thinking what my sizes are, my parts and pieces between tenant walls, my floor ceiling separations. I'm building into the design also whatever extra headroom we may need for the coordination of ductwork and pipes and whatnot once the units are set volumetrically. I'm thinking about what does this look like? If I'm making these changes, is it going to make it look like a bland design? Does it just look like a series of boxes or am I still able to manipulate the parts and pieces to get a unique elevation?

So, create those shadow lines of interest, we've got a wide material palette now. We're able to overlay that on the modules. Back to how we develop that prototype, even though that might be the same, you're not going to know that from the outside, not going to know that from the inside, it's going to feel like anything else that was built anywhere else. So, that's how I've changed because I'm thinking of those efficiencies. Sometimes you get developers, they have their form, they know what they're doing, they've been doing it, they got to perform it, they know the mix and this and that. You got to kind of tuck them into rethinking what you're doing a little bit and change their perspective. Say, look, we're not deviating too much from your ultimate goal. We're tweaking it to make it more efficient and more effective for you. We know you're going to have challenges with certain things and if you do it this way, I promise you, you'll have less challenges. It's also been an interesting point of discussion thinking this way to talk to contractors. Contractors now think, geez, if you are going to promote the modular build, what am I doing? I'm not doing anything anymore. My scope is way less and my profitability is down. I don't want to just be a site contractor and you have to tell them no, that's not it. You're actually more integral now than you were before because I need you to table from the beginning. I need you to think with me how we can do this. We need to know your subbase, how strong they are and how they could integrate with this process. We introduce you to the manufacturer and manufacturers tell you what they're doing. So, everybody's working together now.

 

John McMullen

What can you tell me about some of the partnerships that you've made along the way? You mentioned a network across the United States that you guys had. I know, for instance, you guys have been working with another MBI member. If you could tell me about that partnership and what you've learned from that.

 

Gary Badge

Sure. That's pretty exciting, actually. It's Manny's brainchild because he's heavily into planning. We always get a plan as a start of a project. Somebody's counting on us, wants a density study, they got a unique piece of dirt, how do we fit the units in there? From our modular discussions, those are efficient parts and pieces we know we can do a little more with. He's been interested in AI and he's been interested in looking for software to help us with efficiencies. This group, Zenerate, had an opportunity for us to partner with them as beta testers for their unique software that I think is very, very helpful. It gives us insight to things that we didn't know were possible. With us, we're able to exchange the ideas that they need to improve their product that's going to make it very effective for a lot of end users. Manny, what can you tell everybody about that?

 

Manny Lamarche

John, not a day goes by that we don't hear in the news or publications about AI, artificial intelligence. So as a curious person, you will start investigating and looking into it. There is a lot of stuff out there that is fun, but to some extent, nonsensical, right? Not everything because it's AI or is going to be AI has a practical aspect that we can actually use. We've been looking at it at a large number of applications for planning, architectural design, and renderings. There is a lot of that out there, some of it really crazy, you have no control of what you get. So, when Zenerate came across our desk, and when we started the conversation, the first thing that I realized is that this actually has a future. So, we started to have conversations with them. They opened the opportunity for us to give them feedback. Since planning is something that we do all day long, I thought maybe there is an opportunity here to take this application and put it through the test of sites that I've already done. That I know what the result is and see what I can get with the AI. So, it's been very interesting, working with Benji and his team. He told me the other day that he's going to be speaking at World of Modular. So, we are really looking forward to that presentation. I think that a lot of people, a lot of architects and developers are going to find this product, actually quite practical and usable.

I think that's a great point of distinction of this planning software, which is tailored specifically for the modular industry. It’s not some universal tool that does everything for everybody. They have a very sensible approach to how they're putting this together. It's been amazing for us to see the evolution from day one to recently when they've been incorporating some of the comments that we had and so that collaboration is now producing results. When you play with it, you can see the advantage. So, it was a planning tool that is working and also helping us with our own work. We are helping them with the feedback that we provide. I think that when they speak at World of Modular, that is going to be something that will be very, very interesting for everybody.

 

Gary Badge

Important to note, I think that as sophisticated as software is becoming, it's still not replacing us humans yet. That was a big concern of ours here at FK because the hype of AI was all over the place. If you watch some sci fi movies and you're like me, you might be a little curious as to how that's going to work out. You don't want Skynet taken over anytime soon.

 

John McMullen

It’s funny you mentioned that. I read a story just this morning about how Open AI is going to put in their AI software into humanoid robots and I said, Oh, no.

 

Gary Badge

I was at IAPA a couple years ago, and they had an AI Android there. It was just from the mid torso up, but this thing was creepy. It had all kinds of facial features and movements, and it would engage in conversations with the passerby. It was learning as it went, and it would create more dialogue to be more friendly. Its face moving and blinking creeped me out a little bit. Off topic, but, again, I think this tool is very helpful when you've got a difficult site and you're trying to put the numbers together and trying to pencil things. It can help jumpstart the process and it adds to the kit of parts we already have as design professionals. It's an extension of our pen and paper and I think that these guys are really honest. I think they're approaching it in a smart way. They're asking the professionals like ourselves that do it day in and day out. Manny has been doing planning for forever now. I think he's been great about staying up late with them and communicating. They're overseas so we go back and forth and have little design charettes. I've seen a lot happen in a short amount of time. So, it's interesting, but again, my warning or my message is it's not going to replace people and you're not going to just buy the software and say, I'm going to be able to get my plan. I know my density and I know the number of modules in my mix and everything. And I'm done. It's not going to do that. So, that's good news for us because we'll stay in business.

 

John McMullen

As you guys have been doing this for a few years, plan to do this for many more I assume, your toolbox has been growing, your experiences deepened. Before I let you go, I've got one more question for you. What would you say to your younger selves just starting out as designers about the possibilities of modular? If there's a new modular designer who is still in school or studying or just graduated new to the industry, what would you say to that person about the potential for modular design? What would you say to get them off on the right foot?

 

Gary Badge

I'd say, don't get discouraged. Don't give up. If you have an idea, keep at it and always be communicative. Talk to people, don't be afraid to say the wrong thing because it may not be the wrong thing and may be the right thing. Get out there and talk to as many people as you can. We've seen a number of competitions pop up for modular designs and we've seen some pretty interesting things going on out there. So, you almost get overwhelmed with the amount of people that are now gravitating toward modular builds and modular designs. You would think, why would I want to be involved? Everybody else has already solved that problem. That I think is the wrong attitude because you may have a different perspective. Everybody's perspective could be a game changer. If you have some passion behind it, and you've got that gusto, I think that's going to make you very successful.

 

Manny Lamarche

I would add just a couple of things, be persistent. Persistence pays when you are honest about your objectives, your passion, keep an open mind and learn from the people that have walked the path before you. There is a lot to learn and one of the greatest benefits of having joined the Modular Building Institute is finding that there are so many people that have great ideas. They have great experiences, and they are willing to share those experiences with us and then we become better at what we do because we learn from them and hopefully one day, we may give our two cents to some younger people to keep them going.

 

John McMullen

Thank you so much for your time. It's a pleasure as always and I hope to see both of you in Orlando. I'm sure I'll run into you one of the days of the conference, hopefully several. I really appreciate your insights and your time. Again, thank you for being here. I really appreciate it.

 

Gary Badge

Same, John. We like talking with you and find it interesting. Appreciate the opportunity.

 

Manny Lamarche

Thank you, John, for having us and we're certainly looking forward to World of Modular here in Orlando.

 

John McMullen

My name is John McMullen, and this has been another episode of Inside Modular: The Podcast of Commercial Modular Construction. Until next time.